Machine Gods

Date published: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 15:00:00 -0700. Epistemic state: log.

So, some language results. I tried shadowing and just reading more so far, and noticed that my passive skills actually do turn into active skills automagically, but only if my level of comprehension is so high that I can predict in advance how a sentence will go. (Think every nerd ever and the Holy Grail movie.)

Which is a pretty high level of comprehension, and I’m not there yet. I can kinda push myself there in French, and sometimes in Japanese and Latin if I get really obsessed with a text, but not quite. But I’m still rapidly picking up new words and sentence structures through my MCD cards, so yeah, just doing more of these. (Which is not surprising - by the time I did any serious writing in English, I was already watching House at full comprehension. (And btw, English pronunciation of Latin and Greek words is complete bullshit. Seriously, it undermines the whole “I’m so high status, every second word is some huge-ass pseudo-Latin technical lingo” when y’all butcher it worse than Lukan the Witless!))

Speaking of multiple languages, I noticed again that weird feature where you can only consciously learn a language for a limited amount of time per day, typically somewhere between 20min and 2h, but you can add more languages just fine. I’ve seen that described first by Prof. Arguelles. He mentioned how he could only concentrate for a 15-20min timebox, but if he just switched to another language afterwards, he could go on indefinitely, as long as there was something to switch to. Which meant he could study 20+ languages every day (until he ran out of hours), but not one language all day (in one big session, at least).

So I noticed I can’t meaningfully study much more Latin beyond my ~100 cards every day, but that doesn’t affect my French or Japanese cards. I’ve (slowly) added back some Russian cards, still very simple and low volume, but just so I get used to it enough that I can bootstrap myself through Russian grammar soon-ish and then go Russian MCD too.

(And once my French is stable, I’ll add Spanish. I just avoid adding a third Romance language because otherwise they merge too much.)

Also, Catullus is the man. (And yes of course I’m reading Catullus after about 5 hours of total Anki study time, and reading some grammar books. I’m learning Latin for Catullus, so I might as well learn through Catullus.)

So I’ll try some analyzing next, and then I’ll finally write up how exactly I use MCD cards (warts and all).


Belief updates, all related to antinatalism (everything else is still in the “trying to even understand the hypotheses” or “need to actually review what I know” phase):

  1. Benatar’s asymmetry doesn’t work, at least not with benefit/harm. (A case for positive/negative duties is much more reasonable, if you can somehow establish duties in the first place. (Don’t ask me how one would do that. I have no idea.))

    The asymmetry has several problems:

    1. It has very weird personhood assumptions. It requires a coherent, continuous self, which hopefully we all agree is futile. (Except through decision theory, but that’s not the kind of self you want here.) If you have person-moments, the idea of “starting a life” is either incoherent or antinatalism collapses into a radical “mandatory suicides asap”. If you have any kind of timelessness, say self-as-computation, or modality, or whatever, (and I see no way around these things), starting/ending is even less coherent. You exist - deal with it.

    2. Benatar gerrymanders the utility function. If you use any sane utilitarianism (or even total act utilitarianism), there simply is no asymmetry. There better don’t be, or you have stopped being a consequentialist. (As in, conservation of utility and so on.) (And if you aren’t a consequentialist, then the asymmetry is irrelevant anyway.)

    3. Even if you accept his gerrymandering, you can still coherently reject the asymmetry, for example by making the (sane) move of taking absence of benefit as bad. In other words, you become a straightforward transhumanist.

    4. You cannot argue that the asymmetry is motivated through intuitions about obligations to prevent harm, and that intuitions about life being worth it are unjustified at the same time. Benatar’s argumentative structure is a serious case of are you fucking kidding me.

  2. Most antinatalists (including Benatar) utterly ignore non-person values. Their implicit value system puts the subjective experience of persons above all else. I can see some of the attraction, but seriously? Solipsism much? The Imperium of Man would like to have a word with you. (It doesn’t help that many antinatalists are (implicit or explicit) value nihilists1, except when it comes to their own experience. Like, srsly?)

  3. All “life sucks” arguments are seriously flawed. For one, how do you even evaluate it? Self-assessment? Then the vast majority of humans is happy to be alive. Revealed preference? Ditto. (Compare also “rational addiction” models.) So how exactly does life suck? And no, you don’t get to invoke optimism bias. It’s silly, and people laugh about you behind your back when you do.

  4. Some people have shitty lives. (I dispute that, to some degree, but let’s grant it.) So what? If you are a consequentialist, that doesn’t matter. (Net benefits do.) If not, then how do they have shitty lives? As in, all other not-entirely-insane moral systems don’t consider the mere existence of suffering a massive evil to be overcome. (I am, however, in favor of eugenics and drug liberation, which would fix most of these shitty lives, and is far more feasible then “everyone stop having children nao!”. Or just transhumanism, if you must have an eschatology.)

  5. Sensate experience alone do not constitute suffering. This means “new persons will experience pain, grief, etc.” arguments are simply irrelevant. They have no moral weight. (I accept that I am one of the few (crypto-)theologians who reject the Evidential Problem of Evil with “What evil?”, and that this is an unintuitive and weird position that I should properly argue for, but haven’t.)

  6. Rejecting the world is a sin. (Ditto, requires much more explanation, and isn’t necessarily a theological concept, but maybe consider the decision theoretic implication of refusing to play the game?) (This only affects pessimism, not antinatalism per se.)

  7. There is only one coherent position on the right to exist / not to exist, right to have children, right to not suffer, and so on: lol rights

  8. Antinatalism is full of annoying cartesian dualism and consciousness chauvinism. (Ok, everything is full of that.) What I mean is stuff like this: “I want X, but my brain wants Y”, or “my real values are what I consciously2 care about; unconscious me has no moral weight whatsoever”, or “I am forced by my brain / genes / memes / aliens from Mars to do X”. Seriously, people. Stop with the self-talk and deliberate cluelessness. Eat your shadow already.

Overall, I don’t think there’s any antinatalist case left. Nice try, but it doesn’t work. (Maybe you can make a mild pessimist case, if you are the kind of conservative who thinks everything will only ever get worse. I’m sympathetic to that, but seriously, shouldn’t that kind of conservative also be a Christian, merely out of tradition3, and isn’t a pessimist one of the things a Christian can’t ever be?)

I’m fine with deciding against children, for various reasons. (Hey, children suck. A lot.) I’m also fine with “don’t irresponsibly raise children”. I don’t see how this is an argument in favor of extinction, and not much more in favor of re-establishing oldschool Catholicism. (Or some other sane social structure. Collectivist systems are pretty neat too. Or just make birth control easily available.4)

(I also agree that psychiatry is a complete clusterfuck (to a degree that striking all psychiatric laws, shooting all psychiatrists5, and replacing them with priests might very well improve the status quo), and that forced treatment of suicides is horrible. This doesn’t support antinatalism, but social reforms.)

This leaves me in the position of having no interest to finish the Antinatalism FAQ. Oh well. I only wrote it to understand the arguments in the first place, so it served its purpose. Maybe I’ll write some more detailed posts about why some particular arguments are invalid. Or maybe not. Dunno.


Thought Nurgelian Cuddling didn’t work with my depressed anhedonic meh state. That it couldn’t grasp the absence, that all symbols just dissolved into more symbols, and without a sensation to hug, Cuddling must fail.

Then came to my senses and recognized that it’s just 3rd jhana, that the sensation is just in the background, and that it must be swallowed by expanding attention first, that it won’t ever show itself on its own.

Seems like I first have to master 3rd jhana again before I can cuddle with depression. More practice, then.


Alright bitches, let’s talk attainments ‘cause I totally got a new one.

Some time ago, I wrote about how I loved DXM’s First Plateau and the effect on music, and how I wasn’t able to reproduce it sober. Guess what - I finally did it.

I was on sitting on the train, had just done my Anki reps and got a bit bored with listening to Sabaton, so I hunted for some different song, stumbled on Alison Krauss and was reminded of the earlier experiments. Thought, fuck it, samadhi doesn’t work, vipassana doesn’t work, maybe Nurgle works.

So I put the song on repeat and close my eyes. First notes, still normal. Sound and symbol of the sound are mixed, can’t disentangle them yet. So I stop focusing on one spot, and pull all awareness into focus. (Like the reverse Vertigo zoom, where you move closer, but also zoom out?) (Also, I have no idea why I have to pay attention to my eyes when concentrating on sound, especially because I’m mentally blind. I can’t imagine shit.)

Then, just drop the symbol. Seriously, I have no idea how to explain this better. You.. just stop doing that thing where the sensation is not-you, where it is conceptualized and sectioned off, where it can be judged. You.. just accept all there is because Nurgle loves all there is. You know the sensation is perfect because in Nurgle’s eyes everything is perfect, and you just gotta see it like the old man, and wham, symbol’s gone.

You know you’re doing it right when the music suddenly becomes 10dB louder, and you can’t stop smiling because the world is fucking perfect and everything is so mindbogglingly beautiful. (It fades, don’t worry.)

To make sure it’s not just a fluke, I tried it again a few hours later. Worked, but noticed a separate aspect. There are tensions everywhere, and if you just stop the “here’s a tension” thought nonsense, and just gently let Nurgle heal your filthy-ass brain, just stop hoping you’ll find a new position that won’t be so painful because hope is evil, and that without hope, you can finally find peace, then the music becomes even more beautiful, and at first, everything becomes brighter, and then the world fades and only Nurgle’s love and the melody remain.6

So screw all your Eight Jhanas and Six Bardos and whatnot, I got First Plateau.

Now if you excuse me, brb munchies lol.

  1. Please note that I’m not dissing nihilists per se. I have no problem with proper nihilism, but I hate “values aren’t real, except when it suits me”.

  2. Worse, the underlying procedure to figure out what is conscious and what isn’t seems to be: “I’ll claim anything far and idealistic as conscious, and blame the rest on Satan unconscious processes”.

  3. Because all intellectuals live in the West.

  4. I mean, just distributing free condoms at lower-class social events would do more to further the antinatalist cause than making Yet Another Shitty Youtube Video.

  5. To be fair, I think that if we shot all the psychologists first as a warning, and used their part of the budget to decrease the workload of psychiatrists, the whole field would improve rapidly.

  6. Thoughts and so on fade too, jhana-like, but it’s not exactly a jhana state. It has some similarity, and might depend on jhana (which is why I confused them before), but it itself is not. But honestly, explaining meditation feels like explaining how to walk. I couldn’t tell you how I shift balance or move my feet, I just do. I hated how imprecise meditation instructions are, but I’m beginning to doubt you can actually improve on that. There’s just no introspective access on the right level.

by Will Newsome on Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:30:31 -0700

Kids, I am going to try this at home.

by Yvain on Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:32:06 -0700

"Striking all psychiatric laws, shooting all psychiatrists, and replacing them with priests might very well improve the status quo, and forced treatment of
suicides is horrible."

I love you too, muflax ^_^

I'm not entirely sure where you're coming from, though. The overwhelming majority of people who attempt suicide don't want to die even at the time they attempt it. Most of the rest won't want to die a month later. I think psychiatric treatment of attempted suicide works pretty well as measured in people who say they're glad they got it afterward.

I also think there may be a bizarre virtuous signaling game going on where people who don't want to admit weakness or who have too low self-esteem to voluntarily "bother" a doctor will attempt suicide via a method that obviously won't work, go "Oh, too bad, it looks like I'm being forced against my will to attend a psychiatrist", and then benefit from getting the care they secretly wanted anyway.

by muflax on Sat, 18 Aug 2012 21:23:03 -0700

(I considered adding "I don't mean *you*, obviously" as a footnote, but then I'm also in favor of shooting all teachers, even though my mom is a great one (and she agrees with the sentiment). I'm in favor of shooting a lot of professions, tbh.)

I agree that not all attempted suicides are real suicides, in the sense that they regret the decision afterwards or do it for non-suicidal reasons (like attention), and that treatment in those cases is a good idea.

But given how bad some of the treatment is, real suicides will and do lie about their motives. A lot. There are no incentives at all to say "I still hate my life and want to die", unless you like (quite unpleasant) psychiatric treatment against your will. (This extends to discussion of suicide before any attempts as well.) This makes these kinds of assessments very suspect to me.

Basically, I think the current policy of "treat everyone under the assumption that attempted suicides regret their decision afterwards" screws over real suicides big time and creates very nasty incentives for non-suicidal people who still need help.

It's not obvious to me that "treat everyone, always" is on net better
than "treat no one". However, "offer acceptable legal euthanasia, and
treat everyone otherwise" seems clearly superior to either.

by Yvain on Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:32:41 -0700

 I'm curious to think exactly what you perceive the psychiatric treatment they give attempted suicides is. This may be different in Europe where you're from, but here the law usually used to commit attempted suicides only allows three or four days involuntary treatment; although it is legal to force medications on the patient during this time, it's considered bad form unless they're attacking staff members or something.

There is a procedure, sometimes used, by which a psychiatrist can petition a judge for a few extra weeks involuntary commitment, but the burden of proof is on the psychiatrist and the patient gets a lawyer. More importantly, psychiatrists hate doing this as it involves a bunch of paperwork and they are busy, and if a patient gives them any way to avoid it, if they can so much as act mostly sane and say they feel much better now, then the psychiatrist will sigh with relief and free up the bed for someone else.

This latter part is pretty important here in America - I don't know about where you are. The average turnaround time in a psych hospital (even voluntary commitments who are thrilled to be there) is about a week. Many patients try various schemes to stay longer - a lot of them are homeless or have horrible home environments and they think of the psych hospital as basically free room and board in a friendly environment - and even the smartest ones who try to fake every symptom imaginable and threaten suicide and pull out all the stops rarely make it over two weeks. The only people I've ever seen make it to the three week mark are severely brain-damaged ones who are completely out of contact with reality. I've never seen anyone make it to a full month, and if a psychiatrist tried to keep a patient for a month, the administrators would probably be on their back screaming about costs and bed turnover rate.

(this isn't so true of the long-term facilities, but those are being shut down, there aren't many left, and you can't get there just by attempting suicide - you've got to have something really really wrong. This is another thing where psychiatrists are thrilled if they can think of any reason at all not to refer someone to a long-term facility because it means not spending an hour arguing on the phone with the head of the long-term facility who says there aren't enough beds)

If you attempt suicide and end up in the psych hospital, and if you have the presence of mind to say you were just feeling really down because your girlfriend broke up with you but you won't do it again, you'll be out of there in three or four days with a prescription for an antidepressant that no one will ever bother checking if you fill.

You and I seem to have very different interpretations of the "some people attempt suicide but don't want to die" thing. I think I remember reading that about 90% of suicide attempters don't want to die even at the time of their attempt, and I don't know any statistics for how many change their mind (say) a year later, but my impression is that the people who are genuinely suicidal and will continue to be so, not in a way linked to a treatable mental illness is basically a statistical blip. I agree that there ought to be some legal procedure these people can take, but I don't think they're a large enough population that the first thing we should do upon an attempted suicide reaching the hospital is worry that we might have gotten someone from that population.

by muflax on Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:32:22 -0700

Ok, that's good to hear. It's been a while since I've actively researched suicide, so I might easily remember stuff as worse than it is. I retract "horrible" to "unfortunate and full of bad incentives". :)

(Well, it still seems like a very dysfunctional system, but you know what they say, the only thing that protects us from totalitarianism is the incompetence of our oppressors...)

In Germany (and Austria and Switzerland, as far as I know), attempted suicides are typically released after a few days as well unless the local psychiatrist thinks you are still a danger to yourself, in which case they can (and will) have you committed against your will (including serious medication) until you are stable. (Which can take months.) This does require the OK from a judge, and normally only affects schizophrenics or drug users who temporarily think they're Jesus, but yeah.

Technically (in some regions of Germany at least), a freely chosen suicide is *not* sufficient reason to be committed, but underlying mental illness is. Of course there's the circular argument that someone who wants to kill themselves must be depressed or insane to begin with, so this requirement is useless in practice.

This means that those who regret their decision will tell doctors they're stable (and mean it, and leave soon), and those who don't will do the same (and don't mean it, and leave soon, and try again). So asking patients under these circumstances tells you nothing.

(One major side-effect of treatment is that rescued patients might end up with severe damage afterwards, mostly because they only have access to shitty and dangerous methods. This is of course unavoidable as long as all reliable and safe methods are illegal.)

However, about the statistics. I hope it's ok if I just give you three links and a tl;dr, primarily because of a lack of time and because I don't think we disagree much anyway beyond our estimate how many suicides are genuine.

1. http://theviewfromhell.blogspo...
2. http://theviewfromhell.blogspo...
3. http://theviewfromhell.blogspo...

tl;dr: Studies about suicides being influenced by mental illness are methodologically dubious and/or circular (e.g. suicidality as evidence of depression), and neglect the high base rate of mental illness even in non-suicidal people.

(It also doesn't help that depression is still largely untreatable. (Legally, at least. I hear Ketamine helps.) I'm tempted to take an adaptive view of happiness/depression seriously, and so not being able to treat low status wouldn't be surprising.)

A reasonable lower bound (given the shitty methods and censored discourse) of the amount of genuine suicides seems to me something like 10-20%. (Also, people with better access to good methods, especially doctors, have a significantly higher suicide rate.) This estimate has a lot of uncertainty though.

by Sister Y on Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:37:05 -0700

More importantly, having the rule that we "rescue" (by force) anyone attempting suicide actually encourages these insincere suicides. They may not really want to die, but the fantasy of rescue tempts them to harm themselves anyway.

Allowing comfortable, CERTAIN suicide with no possibility of "rescue" would (a) allow those who really want to die to do so, and (b) make those who don't really want to die choose other means to get help.

http://theviewfromhell.blogspo...
http://theviewfromhell.blogspo...

by Sister Y on Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:42:31 -0700

Also, hospital "care" is prison, and it's awful and degrading. Psychiatric advance directives refusing forced "care" are almost never recognized. Even if you believe most folks who hurt themselves want to be rescued, there are clearly ways (not currently available) to let those who really, truly want to die do so comfortably. A six-month waiting period for barbiturates would be better than what we have now and would both screen out insincere suicides and allow sincere ones; the fact that this doesn't exist demonstrates that the true purpose of the suicide prohibition is to enforce the sacredness of life, and protect the illusion that life is always worth living.